GWTA Region "C" Forum

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03-28-2009, 10:41 AM alzyck Joined on 01-30-2008 Posts 41 Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders This is a bit long, so I appreciate your patience. I'm putting some summer Saturday group rides together. We are going to use this to attract new members to GWTA. One question that has come up is how to deal with with very low mileage riders. Very low mileage riders are either brand new riders that have never ridden before or returning riders that haven't ridden for years and are returning to the riding. These are the people that just bought a new Wing and are looking for a group to ride with. They have less than a season of riding experience on the bike with maybe 100 miles or less total riding experience. When I looked it up on the web, from an accident point of view, group rides are one of the riskiest "normal" street riding activities (highest accident rates). Including low mileage riders on group rides increase the group ride risk exponentially for both the new rider and the other riders in the group. You have a new rider that's tired (not used to the distances), doesn't have the miles to have learned to fully control their bike, hasn't memorized where all the controls are yet, and is getting caught in unexpected rain and high winds while ridding 2 to 4 seconds behind other riders. It's a serious accident waiting to happen. We've been having a really spirited discussion on how to deal with these very low mileage riders. Here's some of the options we've been batting back and forth. I'm looking for opinions on what everyone else thinks about the best approach. Idea 1) Just let the very low mileage riders ride in the group. How else are they going to learn. The biggest upside to this is the ability to attract brand new riders as members. The downside is the risk it places on the existing GWTA members riding in the group. I think this is what happened with the 3 Harley's in the accident last year on Hwy 133 and I-680 where the new rider didn't stop and ran into the other two (broke their legs). 2) If a low mileage rider shows up for a group ride, have one of the more experienced members ride with the new rider separately, away from the group. The upside is this reduces the risk to the group. The downside is it puts a lot of responsibility on the member riding with the low mileage rider. It also takes the member away from group which is why they came. 3) Ask the very low mileage riders to participate in the dinner rides for a season before joining the longer Saturday group rides. The upside is that these are shorter rides to a known destination. If the new rider doesn't feel comfortable, they can ride their own pace to the restaurant and still participate in the activity. Because it's a shorter ride, the risks are less. 4) Ask very low mileage riders to get a season of riding under their belt before joining the group rides. The upside is this lets the new rider learn to control their bike and how to deal with the weather before joining a group. This is the lowest risk for the existing GWTA members riding in the group. The downside is it may seem stand-off'ish to potential new members. So what do you think (sorry for the long message).    Report

03-28-2009, 6:30 PM Tatonka Joined on 06-23-2005 Nebraska!!!! Posts 8,091 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders This is a very interesting question. I know we all need and want to ride as safely as possible. A new rider has to start somewhere. I believe the answer is to quarantine any new rider until the group feels comfortable with them. pre- ride meetings to explain the ride and the staggered positions are a must. You must also ask everyone what their riding comfort is. With new members I have always been in the habit of putting them between two experienced riders so that they could monitor their riding ability and then offer constructive criticism. If at any time any one is uncomfortable with a new riders habits they should speak up. I was a new rider at one time and I appreciated all the advice I could get. Lets face it, If they have some bad habits now is the time to correct them. GWTA is about friendship, we must always remember with friendship comes a responsibility to help our friends even if they are not willing to listen. If they are not willing to listen then it is time to tell them they can not ride with the group until their skills improve. This Best Darn Saturday Ride can be a very valuable tool for both Ch. A and GWTA, we need to be mature enough to answer and help those that want o join us. We have a lot of experience to offer those new riders, why not help them if we can. Region C Director God Bless America    Report

03-29-2009, 1:24 PM SUNRIDER Joined on 11-08-2006 Nebraska Posts 2,009 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders The OBJECTIVE of this organization is to provide the environment and organizational structure around which its membership may enjoy well coordinated social gatherings and events without political endorsements or religious affiliations. It is also to encourage good riding habits, involvement in civic and charitable affairs, and to project a positive image of the sport of tour motorcycling to the public. This is like the second paragraph in the by laws of our association. I do not believe that a new rider put in a group of experianced riders on a all day ride is promoting or encouraging safe riding habits. I also dont think it is our job to teach a new rider how to ride, this is why they offer MSF courses. Personally I didnt even think about joining a club until I had 3000 - 5000 miles on my bike. Does anyone really think that a membership is worth the risk to other riders? Not me, this is a risky enough sport without adding to it. If they want to see who we are and what we do, join us on a dinner ride where the risk will be lower. I always thought that was what they were for.   Just my 2-cents worth. 2003 GL1800 Pearl Yellow 2009 Matching Aluma cargo trailer (Is there really any other color?)    Report

03-29-2009, 1:44 PM biocycle Joined on 08-01-2008 On the road...Duh...we own wings! Posts 494 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders Its a fact that newbie riders should be personally trained on absolutly beautiful days by the region director only. Let the director spend the nice warm sunny sats and suns showing the rope to the newbies. The region directors are the most qualified for this posision. There is NO other way to properly acomplish good riding skills than through the Region director. If you like I can contact him for you. Im sure he'll be more than happy to spend this time. Under the bus you go... http://www.patriotguard.org    Report

03-29-2009, 1:52 PM Tatonka Joined on 06-23-2005 Nebraska!!!! Posts 8,091 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders The OBJECTIVE of this organization is to provide the environment and organizational structure around which its membership may enjoy well coordinated social gatherings and events without political endorsements or religious affiliations. It is also to encourage good riding habits, involvement in civic and charitable affairs, and to project a positive image of the sport of tour motorcycling to the public. You are absolutely correct and we must follow this statement. I believe we are talking about two different circumstances. Any one that has passed their Motorcycle endorsement test should not be on a bike let alone a touring bike. Once they have passed that test they have demonstrated to state that they are capable of handling that bike. I have ridden with many people that are new to riding and have never ridden with a group. In my opinion that is where the pre-ride meeting is so important so that we can communicate to all the riders what will be happening. As a member of GWTA I have no problem helping a new rider grow in their skills. If they demonstrate that they can not operate a bike or are a hazard to the group then at that time I or someone would explain to them in a kind way that they are jepordizing himself and the group. When I bought my first bike my wife asked to go for a ride and I refused until such time as I felt I could ride safely not only for myself but also for my wife's sake. I would expect any new rider to act in the same manor. If we are trying to rule out all the risks to motorcycling we just as well leave the bikes in the garage. The risks can be controlled. Ch. A and Ch G are hosting a bike tune-up on May 9. Why not invite some new riders to this so that we can evaluate their skills? Region C Director God Bless America    Report

03-29-2009, 1:53 PM Tatonka Joined on 06-23-2005 Nebraska!!!! Posts 8,091 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders Its a fact that newbie riders should be personally trained on absolutly beautiful days by the region director only. Let the director spend the nice warm sunny sats and suns showing the rope to the newbies. The region directors are the most qualified for this posision. There is NO other way to properly acomplish good riding skills than through the Region director. If you like I can contact him for you. Im sure he'll be more than happy to spend this time. Under the bus you go... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What are you smokin? Region C Director God Bless America    Report

03-29-2009, 2:01 PM Tatonka Joined on 06-23-2005 Nebraska!!!! Posts 8,091 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders Just one more point. I don't believe anyone should start out on a large bike and I don't believe we are trying to reach the smaller bike riders. I personally had many 1000's of miles on a bike before I went to the touring bike. A small bike can get away from you very quickly if you don't know what you are doing. I have no problem helping them learn but from experience I have learned the best people to do this teach. Once they have their endorsement and they do want to be apart of a group like GWTA we do have a responsibility to help them. A new rider is like a new Christian, someone needs to be able to help them grow. Region C Director God Bless America    Report

03-29-2009, 8:20 PM Wild Wing Joined on 04-05-2006 Omaha Posts 3,187 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders I joined TA on a 600 crotch rocket.  Rode it about 6 months (over the winter) with the group and jumped up to an 1100.  That lasted about 4 months and then went to a 1300.  Another year or so and went to the wing.  I was very worried that I would not get a good reception from the TA folks with me being on a crotch rocket.  But that was not the case.  I was welcomed with open arms.  Mike Hass from Chapter G joined on a very small bike and now is on a 1100 Wing.  So the size of the bike when they join should not be an issue.  Taking a long trip on a small bike would probably be an issue, but we have known people who do quite well on the smaller ones and keep up just fine as long as normal speeds are followed. I would say that we should know some contact information for a new person joining up for a ride if no one knows them.  We rode with another group for our first time a couple of years ago.  We didn't know but one person, so we had no idea that there was a person in the group that knew no one.  Unfortunately he was a very unsteady and new rider and he went down in the Loess Hills.  He was unconscious and no one knew anything about him except for his first name.  He had no wallet.  Finally the guys found his insurance card under the seat.  I do not remember how we finally got ahold of his family, but it was not with his help.  When he came to, he did not remember anything including his name or information.  He was life flighted out and he was very lucky.  He was fine, except for very sore.  No broken bones and no permanent injuries.  We always remember this and worry when we ride with someone new to the group if no one knows them.  We will always ride with them, but we do like to know a bit about them.  Jen Chapter G/NE (JAMRAM) Life Is Too Short, Kiss Slowly, Love Truly, Laugh Uncontrollably,And Never Regret Anything That Made You Smile. Life May Not Be The Party We Hoped For, But While We're Here, We Should Dance...    Report

03-29-2009, 8:44 PM Captain Joined on 11-06-2006 Papillion Posts 164 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders GEEZ, people......I think we are missing the boat here. I have known (as well as you have) several "experienced" riders who have been involved in accidents. Guess what, we cannot prevent accidents, all we can do is ride to the best of our abilities (includes newbees) and use the good judgement we have. Just a quick note, in order for a person to obtain 5000 miles of "ALONE" riding, they would have to leave Omaha, drive to Los Angeles, make a u-turn and drive to New York city, make another u-turn and return to Omaha. Kinda makes me feel riding with a group of people who want to assist my learning skills would be much better. Isn't that our intentions?? Remember, the person tailgating us in a cage might have less than 5000 miles of driving also. PS: We have a female in our chapter (long time riders wife) getting ready to take her riding course. I don't want to be the one to tell her she can't ride with us because she is inexperienced. Come to think of it, I believe we all were at one time. My two cents............ Beam me up, Scotty!!!!!!    Report

03-30-2009, 9:18 AM alzyck Joined on 01-30-2008 Posts 41 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders  Captain wrote: Just a quick note, in order for a person to obtain 5000 miles of "ALONE" riding, they would have to leave Omaha, drive to Los Angeles, make a u-turn and drive to New York city, make another u-turn and return to Omaha. Kinda makes me feel riding with a group of people who want to assist my learning skills would be much better. We could convert this to trips on the bike from LA to Hawaii and back too. It would be just as irrelevant. 5,000 miles is one summer of participating in GWTA activities around town before going on longer road trips with a group. Let's get back to the point, which is about the safety of GWTA members and new very low mileage riders that show up for long group rides. A very low mileage rider in the group isn't the same as a new driver tailgating in a cage. You're not going to be riding 2 seconds behind a new cage driver with 50 miles under his/her belt for the next 100 miles. You will be if a new rider jumps into the group on a long distance ride. We aren't talking about preventing new riders from riding on all GWTA rides. This also doesn't have anything to do with the kind of bike they are riding. The question is, for brand new, very low mileage riders do we want to have a progressive approach to letting them participate on rides so they can build up their skills on the bike before we encourage them to participate in more complex activities or do we want to let anyone go on any ride regardless of experience.  I think Wildwing had a great example of what can happen when a new rider gets involved in the wrong ride. Not only was the new rider lucky he didn't suffer any serious injuries, I think the group was lucky the new rider didn't take out anyone else in the group or any oncoming cars. I agree about riding having inherent risks. Shooting a pistol is inherently dangerous too, but I can't imagine anyone pointing a loaded pistol at someone, pulling the trigger, hurting someone, and using the excuse "hey, that's just the way it is, there are inherent risks with guns". Just because there are additional risks riding doesn't mean you don't have to be prudent how you pursue the activity.      Report

03-30-2009, 9:23 AM Tatonka Joined on 06-23-2005 Nebraska!!!! Posts 8,091 Re: Serious question on best practices for group rides with brand new riders Al, thank you for bringing this up. It seems most of us have some very strong views on this subject. Maybe the answer is to set up some rides, if the need is there, geared to the new riders where some more experienced riders would be there to help the newbie's gain the experience they need. I really dislike the idea of excluding someone that has the desire to ride just because they lack the experience. We all at one time were new riders and someone eventually took the chance to help us gain experience. As popular as motorcycling has become I believe we do have an obligation to reach out and help those in need of riding experience. If we do not do it then they are on their own and i believ3e we can all agree on what we have seen or have heard about accidents because someone lacked the riding experience necessary to safely operate their bike. Knowing our government (and I don't believe it is our government's responsibility or should be) if left up to them it will be done correctly. This can be seen in many of the laws that are in force. I.E. the helmet law- I would never ride a motorcycle with out a helmet I do not believe it is our governments job to tell us we have to. Education should dictate our choices. We should all be mature enough to make wise decisions and and encourage those we spend time with to think for themselves. Region C Director God Bless America    Report

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